Epis. 358- Valerie Werder turns her intense years working for a blue-chip gallery into an inspired novel, Thieves

This episode features the 1st half of the full episode. To get the full version, please visit: Patreon.com/theconversationpod    The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

Recovering art worker and author of the novel Thieves, Valerie Werder talks about:

Her entrance into the art world via her demanding position at a fancy gallery in her attempt, as a newbie, to get access and proximity to the art world;  her ability to conform and comply under pressure (in the gallery environment), and the what the flip side of that looks like; what the coercion, that came thru various forms of care and the engendering of a ‘family’ dynamic at the gallery, looked like and how it played out, including through fancy paid meals and credit for fancy clothes so she could look and act the part; how working at a gallery gave her a completely different relationship to language, including the quick turnaround she had to produce, becoming a ‘language producing machine’ in the process; the craft of writing a gallery press release, and how she ultimately became, upon writing her novel, the ‘commodity’ herself that she in turn needed to sell.

                                

                 

                                                               

Epis. 357- Seattle artist Debra Broz on her studio routines, her love of work, and successfully navigating “the feel bad machine” that is Instagram

Seattle-based artist and restorer Debra Broz talks about:

…living in Seattle, where she moved to from Los Angeles a year and a half prior to our call; how Seattle is full of rule-followers who are also anarchists/anti-capitalists; how she found her Seattle studio, where it was important to have decent heat, especially for her sculptures; her reasons for leaving L.A. for Seattle, and some of the lifestyle differences between the two cities, and how welcoming Seattle has been to her as a new artist; how various sites, specifically Colossal and the Jealous Curator, have been huge in growing her art & design-focused Instagram followers; her pacing and general approach towards her IG feed, where she’s made peace with the fact that she can only go as fast as she can go, nor does she want to try and gamify the system, and how, ultimately, IG is a “feel bad machine;” how Instagram has been punishing people who use it to have sales; the “enshitification” of apps (including IG and Tik Tok) and how it’s made our experiences on them so much worse; her sculptures, made from ceramic figurines, which were originally made for American middle-class homes; how the best places to find her sculptural elements are “out in the wild,” i.e. thrift stores, as well as friends giving her objects, which is her favorite way to acquire her materials; the “if we look for what we need, we’ll find it” serendipity that’s a driving force in Debra’s making process; and how the meme, “I didn’t realize being an artist was making the same thing 1000 times until you die,” is a sentiment very familiar to most artists.

BONUS Patreon footage of this episode includes: the history with Broz’s last name, pronounced “Bros” like “Rose,” which of course eventually arrives at “Bros before ‘Hos.” Her restoration business, the other side of her studio work, where she works with clients restoring their precious objects and keepsakes of all kinds, including one client who has his Picasso-edition ceramics restored; the breakdown of her income from artwork sales to restoration sales, which depends on the year but is often about the same;  her attitude about work, which she loves to do, but not the hustling part when she’s looking for shows and clients, her compulsion towards making whether sculptures or restoration…

If you would like to access Bonus Episodes of the show, to get more content AND support our podcast, please consider becoming a Patreon donor for as little as $1/month via the link below:

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

                                

                 

                                                               

Epis. 356- Zombie Formalism, Debt aesthetics, and AI & Art: New Yorker writer/critic Chris Wiley

Chris Wiley– Artist, New Yorker photography critic, and contributing editor at Frieze – talks about:

His fleeing upstate to the Catskills during the pandemic, and what his relative disconnect from the art world and the city has been like since the move (though he still keeps a small apt. in the city); the differences between English and American artists in terms of academia vs. the market; his epic two-part articles on Zombie Formalism, which covered not just the movement as a market phenomenon but also what it’s led to, including economic precarity and eventually what Wiley has dubbed ‘debt aesthetics;’ the term from the Crypto phenomenon that Wiley applies to many artists of Zombie Formalism, ‘Walk Away Like a Boss,’ to describe those who were able to earn a very solid chunk of money over their brief careers, often parking it in real estate for long-term security; how Zombie Formalist paintings were, as he put it, “’fast, fungible and friendly,’ just like what currency is;” artists who have the ‘it’ factor, an authenticity demonstrating they would be making their art no matter what; the great promise of a Universal Basic Income for artists, particularly in the context of a debt aesthetics that virtually forces artists to compromise their visions instead of getting to be weirdos; his current thoughts on the implications of AI, which he’s been interested in for a long time, having a father who was interested in computers and science fiction when he was growing up; how and whether artists will be safe in terms of jobs and sustainability in an A.I.-dominant landscape, and how the art world isn’t ready for the kind of speed with which A.I. advances will affect art; the AI-generated photography of Charlie Engman, who has been making a bizarre and prolific body of work using the platform Midjourney, despite being a ‘technophobe,’ in his own words; the challenged viability of a career as an editorial photographer with the rise of A.I.; and how his article on A.I. and Charlie’s work, in The New Yorker, pissed a LOT of people off, and why.

If you would like to access Bonus Episodes of the show, to get more content AND support our podcast, please consider becoming a Patreon donor for as little as $1/month via the link below:

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

Chris Wiley’s articles discussed in The Conversation:

What Was the NFT?,
 The Toxic Legacy of Zombie Formalism, Part 1,
The Toxic Legacy of Zombie Formalism, Part 2,
A Photographer Embraces the Alien Logic of A.I.

                                

                 

                                                               

Epis: 354- the Art Thief, the remarkable story of art history’s most prolific stealer – Stéphane Breitwieser – with author Michael Finkel

Michael Finkel discusses the remarkable story of Stéphane Breitwieser, the subject of his recent book, The Art Thief, including:

The genesis of the book project, starting with a three-paragraph article, and eventually turning into a 10+ year-project; the style and methods of theft that Breitwieser and his partner, Anne-Catherine Kleinklaus, put to work; Michael’s favorite Breitwieser crimes; his widely oscillating perception of Breitwieser, from a selfish brat to ‘the best art professor I’ve ever had;’  how Breitwieser protected both Anne-Catherine and his mother by lying on their behalf, but ultimately told the truth to authorities when it came to his own role in the crime sprees; Breitwieser’s Icarus-like trajectory playing out over several years as a result of his increasing addiction to art theft; a teaser of an ongoing plot point related to one of the Art Thief’s main characters, one which may very well be revealed in the soft cover release of the book; and how what Breitwieser and Christopher Knight, the protagonist of Finkel’s earlier book, The Stranger in the Woods, have in common is that they’re extreme outliers who make their own rules.

If you would like to access Bonus Episodes of the show, to get more content AND support our podcast, please consider supporting The Conversation on Patreon via the link below:

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

                                

                 

                                                               

BONUS Epis 353: Land acknowledgements, why museum workers are quitting, and honest criticality in art criticism: riffing on the OLD NEWS with Deb Klowden Mann

In the first of many installments in which we parse and riff on the OLD NEWS, Deb Klowden Mann and I discuss:

1) the procedure of Indian/Indigenous land acknowledgement in making introductions…

2) the widespread loss of value for NFTs, including their incredibly high energy requirements and climate impact, and how we feel about that;

3) the sexism and double standards involved in the trial of Robert Newland (who was involved in the Inigo Philbrick art Ponzi scheme)

4)  why museum workers are quitting, and the heavy burdens running art non-profits, which range from curating all the way to cleaning the toilets, including one non-profit director’s firsthand experience; Deb shares her inside knowledge of having worked in a non-profit arts org herself…particularly the thoughtlessness of the philanthropists/donors who support these organizations, but don’t actually support them by supporting a budget that affords staff a living wage.

5) A suit on behalf of the workers at the restaurant Kappo Masa, part-owned by dealer Larry Gagosian, for wage theft. From an Eater article: “The class action is alleging ‘that the restaurant violated New York law by withholding tips that should have been paid to the waitstaff, and also that it retaliated against the named plaintiff for telling the company about the tip theft.’”

6) the close of several downtown New York galleries right after Postmasters gallery left the neighborhood, among them JTT, Queer Thoughts and Foxy Productions…

7) finally, we sample a selection from the NY art critic Sean Tatol, who had previously been completely unfamiliar to us both, and discuss how his honest criticality is increasingly rare in art criticism these day, and we talk about our own respective art criticism consumption habits, and in turn Deb talks about her current IG consumption, and how specifically it affects her mental as well as physical health…a topic we’ll continue to discuss in future conversations.

If you would like to access Bonus Episodes of the show, like this one, which release once a month, please consider supporting The Conversation on Patreon via the link below:

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

                                

                 

                                                               

Epis: 351- ‘Money on the Wall,’ veteran co-host Deb Klowden Mann joins to discuss the expansive New Yorker profile of legendary art dealer Larry Gagosian

This special episode features return-guest-but-more-co-host Deb Klowden Mann to discuss the recent New Yorker profile of mega-dealer Larry Gagosian. Deb starts us off by updating us on her closing of her eponymous gallery due to multiple health issues, which made the work unsustainable. We follow that update with our discussion of the article, including:

Our respective histories with Gagosian and/or his collectors mentioned in the article; how Gagosian’s decision to allow the profile may be because it humanizes him to the audience, but also, as Deb proposes, to make him and the gallery more appealing to younger artists they could possibly take on; Deb sites a book from the early ‘80s, “The Art Dealers: The Powers Behind the Scene Tell How the Art World Really Works,” which illustrates how when it comes to collectors treating art as investments, it’s been happening for nearly 200 years; how the funding that goes to high-priced artworks sometimes comes from the same people who fund grants/grant foundations, Deb suggests, and she advocates for a more transparent, as well as more evenly distributed financial model for the art world(s); Gagosian’s gallery courtship of the English artist Issy Wood, and what that scenario points to as far as his courtship process, the future of the gallery and his legacy plans, and the vulnerability apparent in that dynamic; Deb’s desire for more really well researched and written pieces (like this one by Patrick Radden Keefe) about how everything works in the art world; and finally, Deb brings up the book The Art of Death as a counterpoint to one’s amassing of power and wealth to stave off mortality, because in many cultures up until the 1800’s, one of the main functions of art was in fact to help people understand death as part of life and prepare them for it.

If you would like to access Bonus Episodes of the show (releasing once a month, two weeks after this one), please consider supporting The Conversation on Patreon here:

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

                                

                 

                                                               

Epis: 345- House-hunting with a Billionaire; Hungarian artist and architect Andi Schmied and Hungarian billionaire Gabriela

Hungarian billionaire Gabriela and artist and architect Andi Schmied talk about:

Andi’s residencies, across Asia and Europe, as well as the Triangle Arts residency in DUMBO, Brooklyn, where she first connected with her fellow Hungarian, the billionaire Gabriela; some of the developments around the world that led her to the realization that there’s a glut of useless, ultra-wealthy housing that’s not actually being used, particularly a complex of villas about 100 miles outside of Beijing, where the groundskeepers wound up squatting in the empty units; doing a residency in New York in 2016, when she encountered Gabriela for the first time, who would become her key collaborator for what would her project ‘Private Views;’ the world of ultra-high end real estate, including the dynamics of a real estate agent showing a penthouse apartment of a very tall building to a client, and how Gabriela navigated these experiences; the questions the real estate agents showing these penthouses and other very expensive apartments asked, and what that revealed about the world of the ultra-wealthy; the various ways super-tall buildings in Manhattan are impacting everything from income inequality to changing the flora and fauna in Central Park from the long shadows they cast.

If you would like to access Bonus Episodes of the show (releasing once a month, two weeks after this one), please consider supporting The Conversation on Patreon here:

The Conversation Art Podcast | creating a podcast that goes behind the scenes of the art worlds | Patreon

                                

                 

                                                               

Subscribe

iTunes
Stitcher

Donate

The Conversation is a podcast that relies on the support of our listeners. Help to keep The Conversation going! Please donate today!

PayPal
Patreon
Venmo

Suggest A Guest

Is there someone you would love for us to interview?

Suggest A Guest

Leave a Review

You can also support the show by leaving A Review on iTunes/Apple Podcasts: this helps more listeners find the show and raise its visibility. All you have to do is visit the iTunes page and leave a nice comment or review and a high rating.

iTunes

Episode Index

Archives